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Subject: Fiesta Island

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Posted:1/28/2010 8:30:39 PM

Tried to get a workaround folks. 2011 seres will run Jan-May. Until 2011, this is the workaround:

Please note: the 2009-2010 SoCal TT Series will not include any Fiesta Island TT events. Due to circumstances outside of our control, Fiesta Island TT currently prevents riders from racing “down” in age category in masters events (USCF/CBR TTs allow riders to race “down” in age group). There is currently no alternative other than to exclude the October 2009 Fiesta Island TT race, and the other Fiesta Island TT events from 2010 from the SoCal TT Series. Please refer to the linked PDF results sheet for details on the dates of exclusion. The reason for this exclusion is that riders who are age 39, 49, or 59 in 2009 and 40, 50, 60 respectively in 2010, cannot race “up” in age group in 2009 and cannot race “down” in the 2010 Fiesta Island TT events into the category that they may have scored points and competed in during the fall of 2009. In 2011, the SoCal TT Series will include the 8 or 9 traditional TT races from Jan-May which will again include Fiesta Island TT events.

mpo7717
Posts:3

Posted:1/31/2010 10:15:48 PM

This is very dissapointing news, particularly for folks who have planned their season, work schedule and training around the TT schedules and dates in this series. Considering the Fiesta races crossed the calendar year in past seasons this is quite a suprise and dissapointment. I'm a bit at a loss to understand what exactly the issue is... let the people who started the TT series in a particular age category finish in that category for scoring purposes - after all, the points and catgeories are computed after you've completed the race, and your age has no bearing on if/when you roll off the line. It seems perfectly fair to have those competing in the top end of an age group during the series to finish in that age group. All the competitors understand and appreciate the effort and hard work that goes into coordinating this series. Lets see it through with the original schedule rather than taking out the meat of the series because of a technicality. Thanks for listening -mpo

Ryon Graf
Posts:1

Posted:2/1/2010 1:14:48 PM

I'll echo the sentiment of the poster above me.

I've personally put a lot of time and effort into training for the time trial series, and it saddens me that my home course has been discluded.

This completely changes the dynamic of the series and throws a bit of a monkey wrench into my preparation / planning for the rest of the season. I'm pretty confident I'm not the only one in this situation.

For those of us racing 1/2/3 or 4/5 categories, could the fiesta island TT's count? I don't see any reason for the aforementioned technicality to apply to USCF racing categories.

mvallender
Posts:17

Posted:2/3/2010 12:02:10 PM
There should be just two categories: men and women

vmandel
Posts:1

Posted:2/3/2010 12:09:18 PM
I agree to the two categories, "men" and "women" Oh wait, us women only have one category as it is. I am also upset by this, as I was training and planning to attend all of the Fiestas, considering I don't even have a choice of competing by age or category. Just gender! I am curious why this has not been an issue in the years past but is now a problem?

redfix5
Posts:15

Posted:2/3/2010 1:27:11 PM
this is sad news!! changing the series mid way thru? my self being right on the line (turning 40 this year) i knew what the deal was if i did the masters cat. i think if there was any confusion with what cat to race because of your age then race your normal cat and don't do the age cats. this will lose allot of rider from the series

gtingley
Posts:78

Posted:2/3/2010 2:42:55 PM

Mike, Good idea, for 2010-2011 the series will be comprised of two categories, MEN and WOMEN, and include the 16 traditional races once again.

This would greatly simply things, and allow the full use of all 16 traditional events from Oct 2010 to May 2011.

Refining to two categories would resolve the Fiesta island age group issue, and also the issue the the non-standardized age group categories at Piru, both of which have been challenges to work with in the past.

paul8885
Posts:26

Posted:2/3/2010 4:53:23 PM

Gary, first of all thanks for all the hard work you have put into the SoCal series. Trying to get USCF, CBR and ABR races grouped into one scoring is a little like trying get Ford, GM and Chrysler to agree on a design. There's a good reason there are three organizations in the first place.

I'm trying to look at info relevant to the snag at Fiesta regarding masters categories. All I have found is this:

http://www.ambikerace.com/ftp/ABR_RB-08v1%201-16-09.pdf

"A member's age is defined as their
age on December 31 of the current
year."

"Masters may compete in any events
for their age or younger, in their
category, but not junior races. Masters
Women also may compete in Masters
Open events up to ten years older than
their racing age."

If I am, say, 49 racing age in 2009 (50 in 2010) I would expect to begin the series in October 2009 in the 40-49 age group and continue in that through the end of the series in May 2010. Moving to the 50-59 in January is possible, but I cannot transfer my points won in 40-49 during 2009 according to SoCal TT series rules.

So... two questions: 1. Where is the ABR "can't race down a category" rule? 2. Is Fiesta Island really ABR or USCF? SDBC seems to run the event and they are listed under ABR and USCF (go figure). Could we not agree, for purposes of scoring in the SoCal series, to adhere to USCF rules? So some guys would have to leave their track bike at home, so what? Maybe masters could just race shirts and skins?

gtingley
Posts:78

Posted:2/3/2010 5:08:08 PM

Hi Paul,

Currently the 2011 SoCal TT Series is on hold pending a solution that allows masters riders to "race down" in age group at Fiesta Island TT.

Follow this scenerio, which actually occured last year:

You are 39 years old and race the 30+ events in the fall of 2009 at Toms Farms, Fiesta Island, Santiago, Piru. In 2010 you are 40 years old. You cannot race Fiesta Island events in the 30-39 category, however you can still race 30+ at Toms Farms, Santiago, Piru. You can no longer effectively compete for the 30+ series due to the Fiesta Island restriction.

I have ran out of other options, would welcome any suggestions and ideas other may have.

Please post them here.

For those who emailed about Piru Jan results/category alignment problems, I just corrected them.

mpo7717
Posts:3

Posted:2/3/2010 9:35:08 PM

Gary - appreciate the clarification above.

Forgive my ignorance, but how do the categories preferred/mandated by promoters have any bearing on the TT series, so long as we are racing within course rules?

It seems the same issue was worked out for Piru races, where age categories are different - so long as you have the raw data at the end of the race, it's a matter of plugging people into categories for the Socal TT points series.

Similar to Piru, everybody realizes that medals and places will be different for the individual event than points for the series. Couldn't the same thing be done for the remaining Fiesta races? So long as we are logging a time, does it really matter what category we started in (as opposed to a mass start race)?

mvallender
Posts:17

Posted:5/11/2010 11:02:52 AM
Racing in another category (such as a less competive one) and applying the points towards another more competive category wouldn't really be fair. For example, if you start out in the 40-49 but then earn a bunch of points in the 50-59 category, is it really fair to allow you to win the 40-49 series for the season? Maybe, but probably not.

mvallender
Posts:17

Posted:5/11/2010 11:05:07 AM
And as far as the "race down" rule, my understanding is the USCF allows it if your categories are 30+, 40+, etc. but when they are 30-39, 40-49, etc. they do not.

uncle-T
Posts:2

Posted:6/9/2010 12:34:45 PM

Good morning everyone, Tren here,... AKA: Uncle Tren

I wanted to sound in on this, since it has been brought up,...
Gary, you mentioned that the folks at Piru have been "Challenging" to work with, I would like to address this directly,.... I want to apologize for that. However, I feel we have been very accommodating,.. We have been going the extra mile to resort the spreadsheet into the cup categories, and sent it to you. While at the race site, we have resorted the masters categories to fit the cup ages, so the racers for the cup, can see where they stand, at the same time we post the primary results.

I know our Masters categories, don't match everyone else's,... I have asked our racers if they would prefer we change our categories,... The resounding answer has been "No!". They have listed these reasons:

1) It gives them a chance to race against different people.
2) They say that it is a TT, and that they can compare their times to any other category, by just looking at the time. Suggesting that it doesn't have to be posted right next to each other, in the same category, to be compared.
3)They state, that the race has been going on for so long (20 or so years) that they are used to it.

On a side note,... We have also tried to offer a wide range of categories, so that racers, of many different levels can enjoy the spirit of competition. You suggested, The Eddie Merckx category, a vintage racing class, with no aero equipment, and a laundry list of non-aero rules. I have enjoyed seeing this category grow. We often get former racers from the 70's & 80's that want to give it a try again,... But, they haven't up graded their bike since then, and aren't sure if they would (have the money to) still be competitive.
In addition to the Eddie Merckx category, I'm pretty sure we are the only TT in SoCal that offers two fixed gear categories (80" and under, Fixed gear Open) and a Single Speed category.

Something else I would like to mention, is our support of Juniors and Women's racing,... When we have larger numbers of either of these racers, we divide them up into smaller, i.e., A 10 year old boy, would not be competitive against a 16 year old boy; or, if I have 3 women that are cat 2 & 3,.. And, 10 that are cat 4's,... The women cat 4, will be getting their own division.

I don't want this to sound like a rant,... It's not meant to be,....
If there is anything we can do to be MORE accommodating,(Other than doing the same thing everyone else is doing, Masters, 40, 50, 60,etc...) PLEASE, let us know!!
I have to go now, and get the start sheet ready for the CBR State TTT.
Thanks for taking the time to read all this.
Everyone, Have a Fantastic day!! Tren

gtingley
Posts:78

Posted:6/9/2010 3:31:15 PM
Tren, to clarify, my "challenges" comments above were not directed at any individuals, rather the difficult process of refining categories: "Refining to two categories would resolve the Fiesta island age group issue, and also the issue the non-standardized age group categories at Piru, both of which have been challenges to work with in the past."

uncle-T
Posts:2

Posted:6/10/2010 10:13:17 AM

No worries, Gary,... As I was working on the Start Sheet,... I was thinking that I might have taken that the wrong way,... If, you were offended, PLEASE accept my apology.
It can be hard to get the gist of what someone means, through text.
Ever try to type a joke,... It just doesn't have the same effect vs. telling the same joke in person.

If I haven't said it before, Thank you for going to the effort to put the series on, I know the racers enjoy it,.... When they come to Piru, they are very excited to be there, and racing in the series. I just thought you should know.

Cheers, Hope to see you soon.

gtingley
Posts:78

Posted:7/23/2010 8:53:01 PM
Update: Fiesta Island TT's promoter will allow riders to "race down" as required in '11. This year, due to rider response, each promoter will have 4 events in the Series, running Sep '10 - Apr '11

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